Discover the tools to navigate the stormy waters of high-conflict divorces and post-separation abuse alongside Rachel Snow, a seasoned divorce and custody coach who has personally weathered a 13-year journey of complex legal battles and emotional turmoil.
Throughout this transformative episode, we delve into the intricacies of family court encounters with abusive exes, unmasking the emotional and financial hurdles that often go unseen.
By tuning in, you're signing up for a masterclass in safeguarding your interests and, more importantly, your children's wellbeing in the throes of conflict.
The path through a high-conflict separation can be fraught with isolation, but forming a support system is a beacon of hope.
In this conversation, we dissect the challenges of co-parenting with a high-conflict ex-partner and the significance of crafting a detailed parenting plan. We lay bare the patterns of people-pleasing behaviors and stress the importance of a support team, including a trauma-informed therapist or coach, an attorney, and a financial analyst. These insights will arm you with the knowledge to maintain your emotional equilibrium and financial stability, ensuring you don’t navigate this journey alone.
Finally, you'll learn the importance of cutting emotional ties to material possession, as well as the power of somatic practices in managing emotional triggers.
As the conversation culminates, we examine the challenges posed by familial dynamics in court, especially in cases involving parents with narcissistic traits, offering a glimmer of hope as we spotlight the progress being made towards better legal recognition of emotional and psychological abuse.
Join us for a heartfelt episode that's both a lifeline and a roadmap for anyone embarking on the road to healing from a high-conflict divorce.
Corissa is a Somatic Trauma-Informed Relationship Coach™ & Narcissistic Abuse Specialist ™ who empowers women after they’ve endured narcissist trauma to rediscover who they are, reclaim their power and find the clarity and courage to move forward and live a life they love. Corissa is also a recovering people-pleaser and codependent who has endured way too many narcissistic relationships to count! She coaches not only from her knowledge and training but also from the wisdom she has gained from her own healing journey.
Book a FREE 30-minute Confidential Clarity Call HERE.
We'd love to hear what you think so leave a voice message on our Podcast Website. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, review, or share it so we can reach more people!
Discover the tools to navigate the stormy waters of high-conflict divorces and post-separation abuse alongside Rachel Snow, a seasoned divorce and custody coach who has personally weathered a 13-year journey of complex legal battles and emotional turmoil.
Throughout this transformative episode, we delve into the intricacies of family court encounters with abusive exes, unmasking the emotional and financial hurdles that often go unseen.
By tuning in, you're signing up for a masterclass in safeguarding your interests and, more importantly, your children's wellbeing in the throes of conflict.
The path through a high-conflict separation can be fraught with isolation, but forming a support system is a beacon of hope.
In this conversation, we dissect the challenges of co-parenting with a high-conflict ex-partner and the significance of crafting a detailed parenting plan. We lay bare the patterns of people-pleasing behaviors and stress the importance of a support team, including a trauma-informed therapist or coach, an attorney, and a financial analyst. These insights will arm you with the knowledge to maintain your emotional equilibrium and financial stability, ensuring you don’t navigate this journey alone.
Finally, you'll learn the importance of cutting emotional ties to material possession, as well as the power of somatic practices in managing emotional triggers.
As the conversation culminates, we examine the challenges posed by familial dynamics in court, especially in cases involving parents with narcissistic traits, offering a glimmer of hope as we spotlight the progress being made towards better legal recognition of emotional and psychological abuse.
Join us for a heartfelt episode that's both a lifeline and a roadmap for anyone embarking on the road to healing from a high-conflict divorce.
Corissa is a Somatic Trauma-Informed Relationship Coach™ & Narcissistic Abuse Specialist ™ who empowers women after they’ve endured narcissist trauma to rediscover who they are, reclaim their power and find the clarity and courage to move forward and live a life they love. Corissa is also a recovering people-pleaser and codependent who has endured way too many narcissistic relationships to count! She coaches not only from her knowledge and training but also from the wisdom she has gained from her own healing journey.
Book a FREE 30-minute Confidential Clarity Call HERE.
We'd love to hear what you think so leave a voice message on our Podcast Website. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, review, or share it so we can reach more people!
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Stepping into Meaningful Relationships podcast. I'm your host, carissa Stepp. I'm a somatic, trauma-informed coach and narcissistic abuse specialist. This is a podcast for you if you are looking to improve your most important relationship, the one you have with yourself, so you can more meaningfully and deeply connect with those around you. This podcast will equip you with valuable tools, tips and tricks essential for recovering from toxic relationships and guide you towards cultivating healthy, fulfilling and intimate connections with others. But first, let's start with you. I'm so excited you're here taking this powerful step forward. Thank you for tuning in. Now let's get to today's episode. Hey, hey, everyone.
Speaker 1:
Welcome back to another episode of Stepping into Meaningful Relationships. Today I am having the pleasure of chatting with Rachel Snow, who is a divorce and custody coach specializing in post-separation abuse and high-conflict cases. She really understands what her clients face when dealing with an abusive ex, because she's been dealing with post-separation abuse for 13 years. Rachel's also a mother to a 17-year-old daughter who she mostly single parents. So I am so excited, rachel, to have you on as a guest to chat today about how we can protect ourselves, when we are dealing with high-conflict divorces, from toxic people in our lives. It feels like so many of us kind of go through the process feeling very much alone and very confused and not really knowing who to reach out to for support. So I love that you're doing this work in the world and I'm excited to kind of pick your brain for this conversation so welcome.
Speaker 2:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:
When we talk about high-conflict divorce, what does that look and feel like? Because not everyone may even understand what that is, especially if it's not something that they've experienced before.
Speaker 2:
Well, I think what happens in family court is family court will diagnose a case as high conflict, but it's not both parties that are high conflict. It takes one person to make the divorce a high-conflict divorce or the custody situation to be high conflict because of one person, and typically the high-conflict individual is abusive in some way. So it could have been physical abuse and a lot of what we're seeing now is coercive control abuse, and so we're seeing more mental, emotional, spiritual, verbal abuse, and that person, the abuser, is the one that makes it high conflict. So it's really unfortunate that we have this title, or a divorce will be labeled high conflict when it's not both people, it's one abuser and it's one safe parent trying to do everything they possibly can to keep them and their children safe. And because family court and the judges are completely uneducated with what happens with domestic violence, they just lump them into one category.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and for my listeners who have been in relationships with, we'll say, narcissists, they very much can probably understand how that even in the unraveling of the relationship and going through that process, that of course the abuse may not necessarily stop just because you've decided to move forward with the process of ending that relationship legally. And the fact that you've been enduring post-separation abuse for 13 years I mean that's a really long time to endure something like that. But I imagine that you've probably learned a lot of strategies to deal with that to help you maintain your sanity.
Speaker 2:
It's been a wild ride. So we split up when my daughter was almost four. We split up in August of 2010 and she turned four in September of 2010. So she was really little and the nutshell of our marriage was.
Speaker 2:
It was pretty boring, dull boring. There wasn't abuse, we didn't fight a lot. But as soon as we separated it was like something flipped and he just turned into this totally different person. So I didn't know what I was dealing with until about 2013, 2014. So we separated in 2010. Our divorce was final in 2011. He attempted to take custody of her in 2012. It was denied and we never had 50-50. I was always the primary parent, and so the post-separation abuse was financial abuse refusing to reimburse for things, refusing to pay for daycare, refusing to buy school supplies, refusing to buy winter coats, refusing to help with anything.
Speaker 2:
I had actually filed for child support before anything was filed for divorce because he was refusing to help out in any way and I had to do something. So we've modified child support a million times since 2010 because every time I did a new week out of raise I had to modify. And then another piece of post-separation abuse. I have the post-separation abuse wheel. I don't have it in front of me but people don't even know that's a thing until I send it to my clients and they're like what? Yes, all of these things.
Speaker 2:
So part of the post-separation abuse is legal abuse, which can be when they file motion after motion after motion with the court. And that's what I've experienced is he was constantly filing motions to modify parenting. He's tried to take custody twice. It's been denied. He filed contempt on me. He wanted me in jail and it's been bizarre.
Speaker 2:
So I've made a ton of mistakes because I didn't know what I was dealing with, I didn't have the support, I didn't have people that understood what I was going through. They very much wanted to understand what happened and why he was acting like this all of a sudden and it wasn't until I found one mom's battle on Facebook and started following that that I realized oh, there's thousands, maybe millions of other women experiencing this. That was the first time I had heard narcissistic abuse. I was like what is that? And so once I finally found that page and felt like I had some support, it started to make sense and pieces kind of fell into place. And not to say that he has NPD, because I'm not a psychologist, but I do know what I was experiencing and I do know the truth of the matter was it was abuse and it was aimed at me, but it was really harming our child.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's like. The worst part is that the children become like the collateral damage and the crossfire of all this. If your daughter is the most important thing to you, he's going to use her as a pawn, as a way to get you to succumb to his will right To continue to exert some sort of control. So when you mentioned that you didn't even realize or didn't really experience the abuse until after the separation, were there red flags beforehand that the abuse may have been going on in the actual relationship before it ended?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, Like, did I miss all these red flags and all these pieces? And I've examined that a lot over the years. I'm an overthinker, I'm anxiety, so of course I'm like, did I miss something? Was there something there that I didn't see? I thought I was savvy with identifying red flags, but I wasn't, and I still don't know that there was much there that he was doing that was a red flag. Now he was pretty complacent, Like he wouldn't fight with me, and so you know I want to have a discussion, but he would never have those hard conversations with me. So I think that's a red flag.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, there's no emotional safety or intimacy in that relationship if you can't have those hard conversations.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and you know, I've again like, of course, I think like where did I go wrong, what did I do? And I wanted to take responsibility, because it's my nature to take responsibility for my part. So I do know that I settled. I was really young, like we were really young.
Speaker 2:
We had no business getting married. We met when we were 23. We got married in 2005, but we were 24. And then in 2006 is when my daughter was born, and so everything happened really fast and we never built a foundation for our relationship. And then, yes, there was a. There was red flags. Now that I see them, now that I'm in my 40s, so what the red flag was?
Speaker 2:
He was going through a divorce, he had been in Iraq and he was army, and so his unit was one of the first to go into Iraq after 9-11. And so I know he suffers from PTSD. So there's, of course, that part of me that can completely empathize, sympathize that he went through something. I can't even have him. However, he didn't want to address the PTSD and he didn't want to get help and he didn't want to go to therapy, and I think that's part of what shut him down. And I don't know. You know I'm guessing, like I'm making assumptions, which we shouldn't do, but when you don't get any answers, you guess and you make assumptions. So, yeah, looking back, it's like, oh, don't get involved with a man going through a divorce, and military is one of the careers that is typically very, extremely abusive, and so it's military, police officers, firefighters, attorneys, doctors, pilots and it's where they have this importance. You know they're important. They have a lot of power because of that, and so they often turn into abusers or they're already abusers.
Speaker 1:
We're not making any blankets statements or judgments, but I could see how potentially those occupations can attract a certain type of person who has a need for control.
Speaker 2:
It's like with any occupation, right, there's the small amount that make the whole look bad. Yeah, so backtracking, yes, there were red flags, but I was very young. Nobody that I recall said to me oh, he's married, he's getting a divorce, he's 23 and that's what's happening. You should probably run, and I should have, but of course I wouldn't have my daughter, and so it doesn't matter how much I look at hindsight or do the shoulda, coulda, woulda, I had to be in that relationship to have my daughter, because she wouldn't be her with a different dad. So that's the blessing that came out of it is I have this really cool kid.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that it's interesting because, like the podcast episode that I released with April Porter, one of my friends, we talked a lot about, you know, grieving those toxic relationships that we get out of, but part of the grieving process is also coming to a place of forgiveness and gratitude as well for what we learned through those experiences.
Speaker 1:
So, as much as it sucks and as much as it hurts you know, while you're in it or as you're getting out of it, it really provides us with an opportunity to sometimes really learn something about ourselves that we didn't know before. That's really important for us to understand in order to move forward and actually create or be who it is that we want to be or what it is that we want to create in this world and leave behind as maybe our legacy or have the impact that we're here to have in this lifetime. So I love how you have essentially used all of your pain as a way to now help empower other women so that they don't make the mistakes that you've made, so that you can provide the support even that you didn't get to have, and your whole experience of all of you now get to provide that for other women, and to me, like that's like a full circle moment, like that's the reason why.
Speaker 2:
Totally, I do say I've said it a lot is. I want to be for my clients. What I needed, I needed me there was no me.
Speaker 2:
I didn't have someone to say, oh, I get it. I totally understand where you're coming from. I understand it's crazy making. I understand. At the end of the day you feel like you're the crazy one and you're exhausted and your nervous system is shot and you don't know which end is up. You don't know if you should just agree to everything and sign the papers to be done, and it was so isolating it was. You know, my friends didn't get it. We were all young. My friends are like what the hell is happening? I don't understand any of this. Like you guys just got married and had a baby and now all of a sudden it's like, yeah, we shouldn't have gotten married.
Speaker 1:
So, but I think even if your friends are older, I mean, you know, I'm sure people still wouldn't understand like wait, like what is he trying to do? I don't understand. That's not who. I thought he was right Because a lot of times, even in these relationships, like you know, people don't see the side of. They didn't see the side of your acts that you experienced behind closed doors. So they just don't understand that it's even possible for someone to maybe even be behaving in that way or to be so calculated in how they're trying to manipulate the system or to manipulate you.
Speaker 2:
Yes, and I've known numerous women who they just say I just want it over. And I can say I understand and it will be, but you're still going to have to deal with him until your children age out of the system. And so let's make sure that you are requesting the things that you need to support you. Let's make sure that your parenting plan is rock solid until your children age out of the system so that when they start middle school or high school, we're not running into who pays for extracurricular activities? Yeah, or oh, they're driving. Who pays for driving school Because they have to do that? And or the car. Then there's a car, then there's insurance, there's all these other things, and so it's just, I think, human nature.
Speaker 2:
We get very focused on the here and now, and unless you have somebody by your side to say so, what do you want it to look like in five years? You know, in five years your kids are going to be 10 and 12. What's that going to look like? And until they have someone to talk them through that, they're not thinking about it. They want to say yes to everything, to have it be over, and I strongly suggest they don't do that. Don't say yes to everything and this is what we figure out when they work with me is let's brainstorm together, let's figure out the best possible outcome and the worst possible outcome and let's really focus on you know, if you could wave your magic wand, what would it look like?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I love that because I feel, like a lot of times, like one of the reasons or one of our patterns of behavior that can sometimes lead us into these types of toxic relationships is people pleasing, and so we will when we feel unsafe.
Speaker 1:
There is a tendency to kind of lean back into that people pleasing behavior in order to stay safe, right, in order to continue to maybe even protect your children as well if they are being used as pawns in the process, so that this abuse ends. But you know, I've even seen with my clients, even after the paperwork is even finalized, that abuse can still continue if you have to have contact with them, which, if you have kids, surprise, surprise you still have to have contact with your ex. And so what do you do in order to minimize that conflict going forward? And it is making sure, to your point, that you're setting yourself up for all of these other little things that are going to come down the pike, that maybe are hard to see in the moment, because you're trying to emotionally process what happened and how you got there and all of that.
Speaker 2:
Crazy time. I mean, if someone's never been divorced, they don't get it. If they've never dealt with somebody that potentially has a personality disorder, they don't get it. And until you're in it or you have someone to tell you, hey, you need, you need a team, so you can't lone wolf this Getting a divorce with someone that is creating a very high conflict situation, you cannot do this alone and you have to create your team. You need a therapist that's most likely a trauma informed therapist, because you're going through trauma. This is traumatic. You know you might be coming and you've been through trauma before you've got to explain.
Speaker 2:
This is traumatic, but how traumatic was the relationship?
Speaker 2:
And often I have clients that don't even see that until they have some separation and they realize I've been walking on eggshells for 15 years.
Speaker 2:
I have been saying yes to everything he wanted.
Speaker 2:
For 15 years I just agreed to keep the peace and so now they have to figure out who they are without this dictator and it's terrifying.
Speaker 2:
And so I want my clients to have a trauma informed therapist that they're seeing at least weekly in the beginning, if they can, an attorney so they have legal representation that understands what they're going through, that this isn't just an amicable divorce and they're fighting over the dining room table, that their ex is very high conflict and really wants to fight about everything. And then a coach, a consultant, someone that can hold your hand through this process, and the person that gets it that's me that can say I totally understand what you're going through because I've lived it and these are the steps to take and it's really a collaboration. We're working together, we're brainstorming together to figure out what the best strategy is for them and their children and their family to get through this with some grace and safety, maybe a little bit of sanity in the end, that they don't feel so isolated and alone, that they know they have a rock solid team to support them through this whole process.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I would probably just add one more team member to that team and even if this is a cost upfront, it's going to come back in the end which is hiring a certified divorce financial analyst just to help you kind of understand the financial picture, because I often find that women in these situations there is financial abuse number one and number two A lot of times they're not even fully aware of all of the assets, potentially, or even all the liabilities, that are out there. Because in order for you to make very informed decisions, it's really important that you have someone working on your side who can help you do the forensic accounting part of it, to understand all of the pieces, and then help you even understand kind of okay, well, what are you entitled to? But I love all of that. I just think that that's so helpful because a lot of times people aren't thinking, well, where am I getting my support from?
Speaker 1:
Because the people that I tend to usually work with are very much like me, which is hyper independent, thinking that I can take it all on and do it all myself. I can do it all. I'm capable, I'm resourceful, I'm smart, I can figure it out. But in these situations where maybe you are being constantly triggered. You're not operating from that prefrontal cortex right. You're not making sound, logical, rational decisions because you're being triggered. So some of those decisions may end up being more reactive and more emotional, which is not always going to be in your highest investment.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely.
Speaker 2:
So the team that I think people need. It's like there's basic start here, but then it trickles down to oh, okay, so you have assets, you have marital assets, you have multiple properties, you have multiple investments, there's 401ks, there's all these things, and so, yes, you need financial support through that and somebody that understands the divorce process. And then it can even lead down to okay, we need a real estate agent that understands divorce, because we may have to sell the marital home or somebody's going to move eventually, so we need someone that can understand what it looks like to get a divorce and need to buy a new house. And so there's all these resources that people don't even know they need until they're in it. And of course, I have those resources for my clients Like, oh, here's a forensic evaluator, here's what is it?
Speaker 2:
A financial forensic evaluator? Because oftentimes someone's hiding money it's usually the abuser, so we have to find where the missing assets are. And people often think this is super common and it's frustrating. But I understand they don't get it. They want to keep the house. Someone wants to keep the house. My kids have grown up here and I can understand that. It's an emotional attachment.
Speaker 2:
It's the emotional attachment, and so my role is to come in and say I understand that you want the consistency for your children. You want them to be able to stay in the home and a house is not a liquid asset. So you're going to agree that he gets all the investments and this 401k and this retirement plan and this savings, but you're going to keep the house. That's not a good idea and sometimes it's really nice to leave the house and start fresh and you get to create your own wonderful space that you know is safe for you and your kids. That hopefully isn't bugged and these guys like to put hidden cameras places. So I just encourage clients to look at it from a different lens if they can, that there's a benefit to not staying in the house.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and it can be hard, because it is such an emotional decision for a lot of people. You don't want to burden yourself with the financial cost of carrying a home on one income that you had been previously supporting with potentially two incomes, or perhaps the abusers income was the one that was really the one that was supporting the family overall. So don't get yourself into a situation.
Speaker 2:
It gets so sticky, and so that's why, of course, you want to have attorneys who understand the legalities of these things and can work through some of that, because if one person wants to stay in the house, the other person says, fine, stay in the house, while the person that leaves I mean the person that stays has to buy the person, the other person, out. So it gets really sticky. But it's a lot of lessons, and unattachment and that's what I work on too is we can't care about everything. We can't show up to every fight we're invited to, like please don't die on that hill, because it is not worth it. So we have to pick the battles that really are worth it, like our children's safety.
Speaker 2:
But who gets the blender? Who cares? There's a lot of things that you have to let go of that you have to become neutral in, and I know firsthand how hard it is to be neutral when you're getting a divorce and everything feels exacerbated and your emotions are high about everything and everything feels like a fight and you feel like you have to show up to every fight because, well, who will know who's right? If you don't like, it's not even worth the fight.
Speaker 1:
Right, and I think sometimes we engage in the fight because we want to prove that we're validated. And so it's interesting because, you know, a lot of my work is dealing with women not necessarily so much that are kind of going through the divorce process. I kind of sometimes get them before they make that decision or after, and a lot of the work that we do is around helping them regulate their nervous system after being in this constant fight or flight or freeze for so long, because that's just what happens. And so we just learn that we have to be defensive all the time, because, number one, we don't want to feel like we're going crazy. We want to prove that we're not losing our minds and that we're right and we've got all these reasons why.
Speaker 1:
But it's also it goes back to these, you know, kind of these core wounds that we all hold, which is that I am, you know, worthless, right, these core wounds of I'm worthless or I am not important, or I am not valuable or I'm not lovable. So when those wounds get triggered in these abusive relationships, we try to do everything we can. Sometimes we come up with these like coping strategies, and sometimes it is just being defensive and we have to go and fight every battle to prove that we are, because thinking or believing that we're not is too painful, like spiritually that's too painful, but somewhere along the lines we've had experiences that made us believe that perhaps that is true. So it's this perception of well, I have to fight to write someone else's thinking about me and we have to detach from actually caring anymore about what anyone else thinks about us and realize and recognize that the only person's opinion that matters is our opinion of ourselves.
Speaker 2:
What childhood wound is being triggered? When was the last time you felt unsafe? When was the last time someone left you? When was the last time you were abandoned? And so we're not. It's just kind of a fact. We're not consciously thinking oh, this is similar to when I was eight years old and I never saw my dad again. We're thinking this is awful, this isn't what I thought. You know, I thought I was getting married and it was gonna be forever. And they trigger that. So then we were forced to deal with what happened to that little girl.
Speaker 2:
And it's so extra painful and it's almost like an out of body experience when you are in this fight or flight constantly and you get the text message from your ex and it's some long, crazy rant and you hear the ding and you feel it in your stomach, you feel it in your gut and it comes up your chest. You feel like you're gonna throw up. And then you're reading it and then you're shaking, Physically, your whole body is shaking and you're thinking I have to respond. I can't let him get away with that. He can't talk to me like that when in reality he didn't say anything that has anything to do with the kids. He's simply telling you how ugly you are, what a horrible person you are, how unlovable you are, and you think you have to respond to that.
Speaker 2:
But me being the coach? Okay. Does this have anything to do with the kids? No. Does this need a response right now? No. Did he ask a question? No. So do you need to respond ever? No, what do you do with it?
Speaker 2:
Oh, this is evidence, this is documentation, so then you can talk yourself back and look at it from a different view. So, of course, I tell my clients when they're working one-on-one with me. Send me examples of his email or his co-parenting message in the co-parenting app. Send me an example or a text message.
Speaker 2:
I wanna see how he talks to you so I can help you come up with a way to respond, because sometimes no response is the best response, and I'm sure you've learned this that if they are toxic, potentially have a personality disorder, they're poking you and they're baiting you and they're trying to hook you into their fight and they want you to respond. They are dying for you to respond. Even better, if you respond and you start flipping out, if you act crazy, then he gets to say see, she's crazy and that's exactly what he wants, and then he wins. So when you can learn how to not respond, or if you do respond, it's your attempt to portray me in a negative light is noted. No response is the best response. No response means your nervous system wins.
Speaker 1:
Although I would say that I just wanna say, like I wouldn't say, that just don't allow yourself to feel the emotions that come with it.
Speaker 2:
Oh no, feel it, you have to yeah yeah, feel it.
Speaker 1:
Allow yourself to feel it. Just don't allow that to cause you to react. It can't take over. It can't take over, yeah.
Speaker 2:
You know when the emotion is building and like it really does start in your gut. That's why it's a gut reaction, right. So it really does start in your gut and it moves up your body and that's why you feel like you're gonna throw up and like your ears get hot and you're just super tense and your shoulders go like this up to your ears and we do have to feel it, but we also have to know how to deal with it when it comes up. That's where I think the trauma informed therapist comes in, because everyone deserves or coach.
Speaker 1:
Or coach, like you have to have that support.
Speaker 2:
You have to have somebody that can really understand. I know how painful this is. Would you like some skills to talk yourself down when this happens.
Speaker 1:
So here's the thing. So I'm gonna say something there that might be a little controversial. Oh, I like it. We can't talk our way out of our feelings. No, we can't feel our way out of our feelings and a lot of times I think therapy is really good for talking things out, to get validation, to maybe learn how to reframe thinking.
Speaker 1:
However, there's then a disconnect between the conscious mind that's trying to reframe the thinking and our subconscious beliefs, and what happens is the trauma actually gets stored in the body, which is why I'm a somatic relationship coach. It's because I am in a trauma informed somatic relationship coach because we have to learn how to heal the trauma in the body and do somatic practices in order to release it. So, you know, that's kind of where I work with my clients is like they get triggered and I'm giving them the tools to help them learn how to work with their body, giving them things that they can do whether it's like a breathing technique or whatever it might be to help them down, regulate their nervous system, to get back into feeling that safe and grounded way, as opposed to just like, oh, how do I make myself wrong for thinking?
Speaker 2:
what I'm thinking?
Speaker 1:
Or how do I make myself wrong for feeling what I'm feeling? Because you're not wrong. Your body is instinctually letting you know that something is off. It's letting you know that you're being triggered and there's something, that there's a wound that needs to be tended to in some way.
Speaker 1:
So how do I bring myself back to feeling safe, to allow myself to feel these feelings and then understand where it's coming from, so that the next time when I have this level of awareness and I know what it feels like in my body when I'm triggered, I can label and identify the emotions that are associated with this trigger and I can identify the sensations in my body, because oftentimes the sensations come first, before we're able to process how we're actually feeling, and then what we're thinking and then what we believe subconsciously might be the perception that's being triggered in that moment. So I just kind of want to throw that out there a little bit, where I'm not saying therapy is a bad thing at all. It 100% is something that everybody needs. But I do believe that it's also really important to not only work from a top down approach but also to work from the bottom up as well with the body.
Speaker 2:
So I agree completely. So for me, nothing you said was controversial for me, because I do want my clients to feel it.
Speaker 1:
I don't want them to try to put it down, put bricks on it and not feel it because it's gonna come back and it's important to feel it because this is still a grieving process.
Speaker 2:
So you're reacting this way because it's still a grieving process. Like this is still very triggering and sometimes you have to. Well, I would say, with all of this, you have to embrace the suck. It all kind of sucks.
Speaker 1:
You know we don't.
Speaker 2:
I know there's so many people and I've been there like there's a reason for everything, there must be a lesson here, and sometimes it just sucks and there's no lesson and you just have to okay, we're gonna be in the suck. So yeah, feeling your feelings is hugely important. I mean, I couldn't do the work I'm doing now if I didn't feel all the feelings that have come up for the past 13 years and do the work to get to a place that not everything triggers me. I'm also in my 40s now, so thank God I've learned all these things at this point. But when you're really young, when you're 29, 30, getting a divorce, you still don't know.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think as you were talking, I was thinking about like well, even how helpful would it be to have, like, the diagnosis of the personality disorder? I don't know where I cut my mind, just kind of went there because for some people I feel like they need that as validation.
Speaker 1:
Again, it's like that validating that it's not me, it's them kind of thing that I'm not broken, that I'm not worthless, I'm not the one who's not important or that I'm not the one that's not lovable, it's them. But I just would love to kind of say that getting that diagnosis abuser is not necessarily going to be helpful for you, even throughout this process, because so many people don't even understand it. And number one and number two there's no quick fix for that. You know you can't just go in for a surgery to remove that part of your brain or your personality to like fix it. You know there's no medication or cure all for it either. It requires a lot of work on their part and if they're not aware or willing or able to do that work on themselves which you know, we could talk about that.
Speaker 2:
That's another episode. That's another conversation.
Speaker 1:
That's a whole other episode, but yeah, it doesn't really help.
Speaker 2:
The courts don't care. And it's very interesting because there have been times where I've heard oh, the exes has a diagnosis from a psychologist because they had to do a parental responsibilities evaluation. So both parties had psyche valves done and it turns out he was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. Guess what? The courts don't care, they still get 50 50. The courts still think he can be a good dad, even though the report says lacks empathy, cannot empathize with anyone.
Speaker 2:
So then you're like okay, well, I have the diagnosis. Now what? Nothing? And if it's something like NPD, there's no, there's no cure, there's no pill, there's no therapy. There's other personality disorders. You know, if it's bipolar, then if they're diagnosed they can take medication to support them through that and that's wonderful. But oftentimes if somebody I mean they don't they don't go to get diagnosed, they don't. Maybe they have someone in their life that's pushing them, saying, hey, you're being crazy and you need to go to the doctor. Maybe it's their new spouse that's like I'm going to leave you unless you do this. And then they do the thing and there's a diagnosis, but it doesn't change much, you can't do anything with it. It might have a slight validation, like I knew it. Okay, now what? I guess I move on with life. And then when they act crazy, you know why? Because, oh, he has a diagnosis.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. But I'd also just say, like, if your abuser does not have a diagnosis, that that doesn't mean that they're not exhibiting all these traits either.
Speaker 2:
I think that we can sometimes make ourselves crazy too, thinking like, oh, maybe it's us Well, and that's what they do is they're trying to make you look crazy, just like I said, they want you to freak out so they can say See, I'm so calm and cool and collected and she's a mess, and that part, of course, is maddening, but it's part of the game. And I know right now I'm sure you've experienced this that narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder is like a huge you know, it's a hot word right now and so people are throwing it around just casually. And I have to remind people, you know, we're not psychologists, we can't diagnose these people. And of course I would tell my clients don't ever say that, like don't ever say out loud to anyone that he's a narcissist, because you can't diagnose him. A judge would be furious because unless you, you know, did a psychological evaluation, you can't diagnose them. So it's safer to say this person exhibits some of these traits.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, the patterns of behavior, because even like yes, exactly, I say all the time like I don't like using the word narcissist for that reason Because, first of all, I'd also don't believe in like labeling people, you know, but it does help us understand certain types of behavior that are associated if you are familiar with that. But absolutely 100%, like there are patterns of behavior that you can very easily describe or point to. That would help someone understand the type of person that you're dealing with. And really it's all about control. So it's control like lack of empathy, you know, like those are like the two key things I would say if you had to sort of explain this to somebody else to have them really grasp the understanding of what's going on in the home, you know.
Speaker 1:
And the other problem that I have is like the court system really doesn't recognize emotional, psychological or verbal abuse even as domestic abuse, and it is absolutely 100% domestic abuse, or even coercive control, which is another thing, and so we are starting to see some of the states sort of bring it in the concept of coercive control. I know that, yes, there's someone that I follow and she has been keeping a surprise of kind of what's happening in the legal systems and I believe it was California recently has entertained, I think, and if they've not already signed it, I think, that they have a law that incorporates and talks about coercive control and how that is abuse and how that needs to be taken into account when we are in these domestic situations in court Right.
Speaker 2:
I think there's a few states and of course I'm a DV advocate. I mean, how could I not be with what I'm in, what I do, what I've been through? And I'm in Colorado, so I focus pretty much on Colorado because I can't focus on the whole country all the time. So I focus a lot on Colorado and we don't have that law yet, but I do think it's Colorado and there's been other states that have passed coercive control laws. I mean we have passed some laws here that we've passed Julie's law and we've passed Kayden's law in Colorado, which is huge for advocacy and DV work and it's meant to educate the family court system on abusers and what it looks like and stop giving custody to abusers, because I'm really tired of seeing children end up not alive because of their abuser.
Speaker 2:
That's a whole other episode too. But there are some changes and we have to celebrate the wins that we get there as advocates, as survivors, as safe parents, as women, because the epidemic of domestic violence and abusers is. It's just mind boggling to me. It's really, really overwhelming sometimes at how crazy the levels of abuse are right now and of course I get way more information than most people because of the circles I'm in.
Speaker 1:
Right, right, right, but it's true. I would love for us to end with. How can listeners reach out to you? We will have your contact info in the show notes, but if you just want to direct us at least to your website and maybe your social media handles, that would be really helpful.
Speaker 2:
So I have, of course, my business Facebook and Instagram page and it's Luminary Divorce Coaching. So it would be at luminarydivorcecoaching it's a picture of me, not my logo, so that people make the connection, and my website is luminarydivorcecoachingcom so they can find me there, and I'm always here for anyone that wants to reach out, got questions, they want to do an empowerment call with me to see what's my next step. Are we a good fit? How can you support me? And that's a great first way to do that.
Speaker 1:
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, rachel, for coming on and having this conversation with me today. I know that the listeners definitely got a lot out of it and I'm really grateful to you for all the work that you're doing, and I know that plenty of people are going to be reaching out to you after listening to this conversation to get the support that they need to help them through what is very much a difficult time and a challenging time, and I love that they have you as a resource. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:
Thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to be here and thrilled to speak, of course, about what I do. I think that I've heard so many women go. I didn't even know that was a thing a divorce coach. There's actually somebody that can help me through this. That's not an attorney, not an attorney. I'm less expensive than an attorney too, so that's helpful and you know you deserve the support. Women deserve the support.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely 100%. All right listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Until next week, be well. If you're hearing this message, that means you've listened all the way to the end, and for that I am truly grateful. If you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable, would you mind leaving us a review? Wherever you listen to podcasts and sharing it with others? If you'd like to connect with me for one-on-one coaching or human design reading, you can find me on my website or on social media. Also, if you have a topic you'd like me to discuss on a future episode, please DM me. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Stepping into Meaningful Relationships.