The Truth About Coercive Control in Intimate Relationships with Jennifer Parker

Are you ready to gain an in-depth understanding of coercive control in relationships? Do you want to spot the red flags and break free from the shackles of such a toxic environment? Today's episode brings you closer to these goals as we welcome the insightful Jennifer Parker, a seasoned therapist and author with extensive experience in working with survivors of intimate partner abuse.

Together, we navigate the labyrinth of coercive control, a disturbing behavioral pattern characterized by domination, fear, and the deprivation of civil rights. Jennifer enlightens us on the key traits of those who employ coercive control, revealing their belief in finite power and their relentless pursuit of power over others. We also delve into the vulnerability of codependents in these relationships, underscoring the significance of setting firm boundaries as a crucial first step towards reclaiming power. But we don't stop there. We dive deeper, exploring the complexities of coercive relationships and providing tangible tips and insights on how to handle them effectively.

The discussion takes an intriguing turn when we delve into the controversial role of couples counseling in abusive relationships and its potential to inadvertently harm victims further. We dissect the cunning tactics abusers use to portray themselves as victims, often leaving the actual victims silenced and disbelieved. As we conclude, remember to trust your own experiences and resist the manipulator's gaslighting tactics. After all, the most important relationship you have is the one with yourself. So, tune in, learn, and take the first step towards healthier relationships.

Ways to Connect with Jennifer (and get a discount on her book!):

Website: https://madisonmentalhealthcounselor.com/

Book: https://www.blackrosewriting.com/nonfiction/coerciverelationships
(Use Promo Code CR20 for 20% off. until May 2024)

Facebook: JenniferCParkerMSSW

Instagram: @Jenniferc.Parker

LinkedIn: Jennifer Parker

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Corissa is a Somatic Trauma-Informed Relationship Coach™ & Narcissistic Abuse Specialist ™ who empowers women after they’ve endured narcissist trauma to rediscover who they are, reclaim their power and find the clarity and courage to move forward and live a life they love. Corissa is also a recovering people-pleaser and codependent who has endured way too many narcissistic relationships to count! She coaches not only from her knowledge and training but also from the wisdom she has gained from her own healing journey.

Book a FREE 30-minute Confidential Clarity Call HERE.

Ways to connect with Corissa:

Podcast Website
Website: www.corissastepp.com
Community: StrongHER
Instagram: @corissastepp
Facebook: Corissa Stepp

We'd love to hear what you think so leave a voice message on our Podcast Website. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, review, or share it so we can reach more people!

Transcript

Corissa Stepp: 0:09

Welcome to the Stepping Into Meaningful Relationships podcast. I'm your host, carissa Stepp. I'm a relationship and human design coach, and this podcast is designed to help you create a stronger connection to yourself so you can transform the relationships around you, whether that be with your partner, a friend, a parent, a child or your business. We will be looking at relationships through the lens of human design, and my guests and I will bring you the tools, tips and tricks to create deeply meaningful connections with others. But first let's start with you. The most important relationship you have is the one with yourself. Thank you for tuning in. Now let's get to today's episode. Hey, hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Stepping Into Meaningful Relationships. I'm your host, carissa Stepp.

Corissa Stepp: 0:58

We're going to be having an incredible conversation today with Jennifer Parker, whose eyes were open to intimate partner abuse when she had an internship with a domestic abuse shelter in 1982. She was inspired to become a therapist, obtaining her master's degree from the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1986. Jennifer specialized in working with intimate partner abuse survivors and developed a curriculum of materials the clients found empowering. She was inspired then by their resilience to write the book Coercive Relationships Find the Answers you Seek, so that she could reach more survivors and those who care about them. Jennifer currently publishes a monthly blog and presents workshops to therapists and other professionals regarding effective therapy. Her work vision is to promote understanding of coercive control, reduce the isolation victims' feel and shift society toward respectful relationships. Jennifer, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Jennifer Parker: 1:54

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation. I really liked that in listening to some of your podcasts that you also tell people the most important relationship is with yourself. I used to tell that to clients all the time. So I really respect your work.

Corissa Stepp: 2:15

Thank you so much. That means a lot to me. So I just wanted to say to listeners who are listening right now we're going to be talking about, I would say, somewhat of a sensitive topic. We're going to be talking a lot about coercive control and for some of you, you may actually find this discussion a little bit triggering, because you may recognize that perhaps maybe you're in a relationship with someone who is coercively controlling you, and so what I'd like to say is, if you're listening to this, I would choose a time, if not right now, to find a nice, quiet and safe space to listen, maybe not around your children. I would also suggest, perhaps, that maybe you're not driving a moving vehicle, because, again, you might actually feel some activation in your body and we want you to obviously be very safe. So, jennifer, with that being said, would you tell us what your definition is of coercive control, so that listeners can better understand what we're talking about today?

Jennifer Parker: 3:19

Sure, and I really appreciate that you did give that kind of trigger warning. That's very great. So coercive control is a consistent behavior or consistent behavior. So it is a one-time thing. It's a consistent pattern of behavior that establishes domination and a relationship and that's based on techniques that induce fear in the person, dependency, and that deprive them of their civil rights, their basic rights to live their lives, to make choices and so forth. So that's what coercive control is, and in my book I have an extensive list of coercive control behaviors. A lot of times people say I'm not sure, is it really abuse, especially if maybe they grew up with some of that behavior. So it's a way to check a checklist in terms of answering that question for people.

Corissa Stepp: 4:19

Yeah, so for me, one of the things that I always say is that abusers in general, it's usually all about control for them. So when we talk about coercive control, can we say that that's likely the foundation for most types of people who are abusive, that most of them are coercive controllers in some way?

Jennifer Parker: 4:43

Yes, definitely, coercive control includes physical abuse, certainly, but it includes all kinds of emotional, mental, spiritual abuse that often is harder for people to identify.

Corissa Stepp: 4:56

Yeah, absolutely for sure, and so I know. Even for me, when I started understanding what emotional abuse was and spiritual abuse and all of that, I didn't even realize or recognize that that's what was happening in the relationship. So I guess maybe where I'd like to start is what are some of the traits or characteristics or beliefs, or even core wounds of someone who might use coercive control in their relationships?

Jennifer Parker: 5:26

That's a great question. So some beliefs that I include in my book that really are endemic to all coercive relationships and I want to include other types of relationships, such as you can run into coercive control in organizations, people besides a personal relationship, but there are kind of four basic beliefs that underlie their behavior. First of all, they believe that there's a small amount of power and therefore they have to be jealous of that power. It's finite and therefore they really have a difficulty tolerating someone else expressing power, and I'm talking about even the power that we each should have as people to express our own opinions and so forth, to do things our own way. And then all of these beliefs, by the way, kind of support one another. And then they also believe that in order to be powerful, power has to come using power over others. There's not really a they don't give. They don't understand power within, first of all, because that's very important and I know that you talk about that with other people developing that, reinforcing that. But also shared power, that whole concept they don't understand.

Jennifer Parker: 6:51

An example would be one time I knew somebody, I was in a relationship with somebody and it either had to be his way or he felt like he was being abused, he had to give in, and so there could be no conversation like, oh, I'm thinking about it this way and how you can have conversations and eventually maybe you're taking one position but it's like, oh, this is really important, I'm willing to give on that particular thing.

Jennifer Parker: 7:21

It can't happen if you believe that you have to have power over someone to be okay. And then a third belief has to do with all the differences, therefore, are threatening. So if you feel or say or do things that are different from them, then they feel threatened by that. And then the fourth one that all of this leads to is that some people have greater worth than others, and in a personal relationship that translates to being I'm entitled to get my way all the time and your rights do not. I don't recognize your rights, it's like they're not important. So those are kind of the four basic beliefs that really permit people to use any form of coercive control, whether that's devaluing the person, whether that's constantly criticizing them, minimizing, denying, twisting what you're saying and, of course, certainly physical ways that people coercively control as well.

Corissa Stepp: 8:27

Yeah so.

Jennifer Parker: 8:28

I answer your question.

Corissa Stepp: 8:29

You did answer my question and, as you were speaking, what I was thinking about was, obviously I talk a lot about narcissistic abuse and I know that you did mention in the book that there are some personality disorders that where a course of control could be, or some of the beliefs behind coercive control could also be things that maybe a narcissist or someone with a histrionic or a borderline personality disorder might also believe. And so, as you're talking, the thing that I'm thinking about and of course I tend to take everything through like a trauma-informed lens is wow, these people have had and experienced a lot of trauma that led them to feel so deeply insecure that the only way that they could feel like they were valuable or important is by using these manipulative tactics or these controlling ways in order to feel like they are more powerful. They are actually important, basically to get their power needs, their control needs and even like their love ability needs met.

Jennifer Parker: 9:38

And it's so unfortunate because it really works against them in the long run. Usually, and a lot of times, people who have been victimized may get confused because it's like, well, I know they came from such a terrible background, you know they have this experience and that experience. And what's important for them to know is, yes, and many times victims have come from similar types of backgrounds. It is a choice about and you can make choices. Even if you've learned abusive behavior, you can make choices to not go in that direction, and so seeing it as a choice is very, very important in terms of people being able to heal themselves and kind of move forth out of coercive, controlling relationships.

Corissa Stepp: 10:30

Right. So I guess, just to kind of boil it down, it's like they're choosing to be abusive, or they're choosing to abusively react, maybe in situations.

Jennifer Parker: 10:42

Well, it may not feel like a choice in the beginning, but the issue is, if they're faced with that, if they're hearing I'm not okay with this or someone is trying to hold them accountable and they refuse to change. That's the choice.

Corissa Stepp: 10:58

Right, okay, gotcha. So it's even like with the narcissist. We talk about how they just don't take accountability for their actions, and it's kind of the same thing. You can't make a change or make an amend or do anything to work on yourself if you're not willing to first accept and acknowledge and take accountability.

Jennifer Parker: 11:23

Yes.

Corissa Stepp: 11:24

Yes. So I'd love to talk about how these relationships begin, because, again, I think that a lot of people don't really realize that they're in this type of relationship until some time has gone by, because it's not like you would meet someone and end up in a coercive relationship with them if, from the get-go, they were being controlling in any kind of way.

Jennifer Parker: 11:47

Right, Right, right. I often had people that I worked with say you know, I wish that they had it on their foreheads, because they often don't trust themselves to recognize it when it happens. And actually the first coercive control roadblocks the first one is about seduction, because there can be very, very subtle kinds of things, so, like some of them can be, if somebody wants, has to spend all their time with you, well, of course, when we're we initially start to fall in love with someone, it's very normal to want to spend a lot of time together. But I'm talking about it's like they have to and they don't accept the fact that perhaps you have friends or family or something else that you want to do without them. If they have few friends of that's assuming, of the opposite sex or the same sex, if they're in a heterosexual, if they have few friends of the same sex and they really show a dependency, that's something to pick up on, because those kinds of things, if it is, if they are going to be coercively controlling, it's only going to get worse over time, not being interested. This is kind of a double edged one. So sometimes they aren't, they don't show really much interest in what your, your interest are on what you're doing in your life, on what your feeling is. It's all about them. On the other hand, sometimes it begins that they are super interested and super involved and they really become a little bit more intrusive and it's hard to pick up on it first. So it can take both, both forms. Certainly, pay attention if, when, when you say no to someone, that they really have trouble taking that as an answer, that they don't want to accept it, that they may, you know, argue with it or put it down or pout or things like that, if they're making agreements with you, you think you've made an agreement and then somehow they conveniently forget it or they deny that they ever did it, that's certainly something to pick up on as well.

Jennifer Parker: 13:59

There are many, many, many more I could go into, but one of the things that happens early in a relationship is, you know, we give the benefit of the doubt. That's a healthy relationship skill, by the way, not to just turn your back on someone because there's one instance of something, but what we have to do is be, you know, be curious and interested. It's like okay, what is this about? And begin to ask them. Some healthy communication skills can be asking questions when you're concerned about something early in the relationship, you know getting more answers about that.

Jennifer Parker: 14:34

A story that I can tell about a relationship that I had one time was I was having some big concerns and you know we were having arguments about it because I was a strong person being able to stand up to them. And so one time, when we weren't in an argument, I said you know, it seems as if you seem to think that you always know best for people, and it didn't even make it just about me that pretty much your opinion is always the best one. And that person said yes, they didn't realize what they were saying yes to, but that was kind of the beginning of the end of that relationship for me, or not the beginning, but it was kind of the final, final step in terms of, okay, if somebody really believes that and they're unwilling to give that up, not a good, not a good healthy relationship for me.

Corissa Stepp: 15:27

Right, because it seems like this type of person would not have any sort of ability to recognize other people's needs or that their other people's needs are just as important as theirs. Because when you're in a relationship where you're trying to control everything, it's like no, like my needs are more important. How I think, or what I believe is more important, right, and that's sort of like that entitlement belief that you were mentioning earlier. So that completely makes sense to me. And then when you're talking about, like you know, paying attention to whether or not they respect your nose, it's like okay, so, someone who's not good with boundaries, that's a very big thing. But what I also thought about was when you were talking about how, sometimes early on in these relationships, they want to spend a lot of time with you and that can be like a normal thing Well, I was also thinking about, well, codependence might also be very willing to give up their interests, their friends, you know, time with their family to spend time with someone new in their life, because they also get, you know, their validation, their approval, their needs for love and attention met in the relationship very early on, when there is a lot of attention usually being bestowed upon you by this other person.

Corissa Stepp: 16:38

So you know, I'm thinking to myself like, okay, so, and I say this, I say this a lot and you've not heard me say this, but I believe that and I keep bringing this back to narcissism because that's just what I'm most familiar with, but I think they're very relevant, which is all narcissists are also codependent and narcissistic codependents are very much attracted to each other. So it seems to me like codependents are probably almost like the prime target for coerced of relations. You know of people who would end up in these coercive relationships.

Jennifer Parker: 17:12

Many times that is a vulnerability and in my book one of the sections of the book really looks at different roads of vulnerability for people and one of them is certainly if you've learned that in order to be an okay person, to have good self-esteem, you have to be submissive to others, whatever they, you can't disagree, you can't say no, etc. Then that's a real vulnerability for this type of relationship and certainly they do often kind of look for that. If early in a relationship the person is setting more boundaries than they like, then they might lose interest.

Corissa Stepp: 17:47

Right, right, that makes so much sense. And then the other thing that I thought of when you were talking about like pay attention to whether or not they actually are interested in your interests, or like in your day and what's going on in your life.

Corissa Stepp: 18:01

The other thing that I have found personally, when I've been in a coercive relationship, what I noticed was the relationship was very superficial, like they never asked me questions about you know, whether it was my childhood or my favorite, you know, vacation memory that I had, or you know, there was no interest really in who, how I became who I was or even who I was, and so the interests were. You know, maybe there was some conversation around what my interests were, because that still seemed somewhat superficial. It's like, well, how do you spend your day outside of going to work? But that's not really indicative of who someone really is. So it felt like really superficial. And it wasn't until years later when I realized like, oh my gosh, like I want actually a more deeper, more intimate connection with someone who actually knows who I am and who doesn't throw around these blanket statements as if you know, I'm someone else that they've perceived me to be. That's not who I am, because they never really got to know me to begin with. Does that make sense?

Jennifer Parker: 19:04

Oh, it definitely makes sense and it definitely is characteristic of many people who use coercive control. However, I will also say that one of the things that can trick people is that maybe they express lots of interest in you early on and it's just like, oh, this really wowing you and what's the expression love bombing? You know a lot of things, but it really sort of convinces you they really are interested in you. But later on, slowly but surely, it becomes all about them and they stop that you know they don't take your rights or your choices seriously. So it can go both ways.

Corissa Stepp: 19:46

Or I think sometimes they try to get to know you so well so that you feel safe and comfortable to share your vulnerabilities.

Corissa Stepp: 19:53

Which they then use against you later on, and they'll actually continue to find ways to just sort of dig deeper into those insecurities to make you feel less than more so than you may already do. So you lose your sense of self-worth, maybe even your sense of self, because they're constantly just like digging away or, as I call it, sometimes like the death by a thousand paper cuts, because it might happen so subtly that you don't even recognize it.

Jennifer Parker: 20:19

I can think of a good example of that, an anonymous example of someone who came in for therapy because their partner said that they really had issues of being an adult child of an alcoholic, which was true that they did grow up in an alcoholic home, but they were using that in order to convince them that they should give in to all of you know, anything that they wanted, including sexuality. So yeah, Wow.

Corissa Stepp: 20:53

Well, I guess that makes sense to me, even when I think about it, like I said about the codependence who might be targets for this type of relationship, because I think a lot of people who fall into codependency and I'm speaking more towards people who probably have more people pleasing type of behaviors that come up tend to be very empathic.

Corissa Stepp: 21:14

And so when you can see, you know, you hear that sad, tragic story of this other person, of what they've experienced whether it was growing up with the alcoholic parent or some other kind of childhood trauma that they experienced a lot of times that empathy then gets used against you because at first you might use that as a way to make excuses for the abusive behavior of oh well, you know he's had these bad experiences and that's why he's treating me this way, and maybe even the abuser is, like you said, just pointing and blaming that past experience for the reason why maybe they blew up in a conversation or why they got emotionally, you know, dysregulated in a moment and said really hurtful things, and so that can end up being used against us. Because we start using, we start making excuses Right, that empathy becomes almost like the engine that drives all the excuses of that behavior.

Jennifer Parker: 22:09

Yes, yes, definitely. You've really put your finger on something that's important because the strength of empathy empathy is a very important communication skill. However, it can be used against you, and so it's very important to really work on having good, sound boundaries, it's like, and you can be empathic about their background and what happened to them without and still be able to set boundaries with. I'm not okay with what you're doing now.

Jennifer Parker: 22:40

This choice, you know, doesn't agree with me. It feels like, you know, it's not loving or whatever it is, and that that you know. Especially if somebody has learned I've picked up on the term of over-carrying, instead of using co-dependence quite as much, which I got from a heart math solution I don't know if you've ever heard of that yes, but if somebody's been taught to just focus their, their attention on taking care of others to the to the detriment of themselves. You know, caring for others is great, hey, therapist and other people like us right, that's part of what we do, but there needs to be a boundary in terms of it's not it's not hurting yourself, in order to do that.

Corissa Stepp: 23:25

Yeah, I love that over-carrying instead of co-dependent, because it really does capture it so much more, I don't know, in a way that doesn't feel like it has such a stigma attached to it.

Corissa Stepp: 23:35

You know, because it's true, co-dependence tend to over-care, end up self-sacrificing and even self-abandoning, and that's truly an issue.

Corissa Stepp: 23:44

But someone who, whose motivation is just to control and to dominate, out of these beliefs of you know entitlement and you know this need to feel important or more important than other people, unfortunately, that's going to leave them so susceptible because they're already abandoning themselves. They're already so willing to give up their rights, kind of like you said right their rights to their own opinions, their own beliefs, their own time, even to take care of themselves above taking care of everyone else first. And so what I'd love to talk about, because I think that if we talk about this at the high level of, like the traits of someone who's over caring, I feel like people still may not recognize that they're in, maybe, a coercive relationship. I love to just go another level deeper, which is how would someone be able to identify these red flags? But I think, more importantly, the way someone can maybe identify this is how they're actually feeling in the relationship, because, again, we can get really good at making excuses for the actual things that are happening in the relationship.

Jennifer Parker: 24:55

I think you're naming something really important yes, paying attention to your own emotions, your feeling, what it feels like. If it feels like, or you're getting feedback from others, that somehow you're being diminished, that you're not speaking up for yourself as much, or maybe you're feeling more depressed, maybe you're feeling anxious whenever that person, when you're around that person or that person, comes home, paying attention to that is really important and being curious. It's like okay, what's going on here? What am I missing something? And, of course, the course of controller is apt to say oh, this is your problem and point to whatever it is, whether it's adult, child of alcoholic or you're just depressed and so forth and not take any accountability.

Jennifer Parker: 25:47

So it's important to oh, this really brings up something very important Generally. Oftentimes people become very isolated, even if they're working. They become isolated from relationships in which they can get other kinds of feedback and which they can talk about these kinds of things, and then that leaves them even more vulnerable, because then they're just getting the opinions of the person who's abusing them.

Corissa Stepp: 26:16

So it's very important to find those people that you can trust, that you can talk with about any concerns that you have, who aren't going to be pushing you into some decision or other, because sometimes that's a concern, right yeah you don't want to be talking to someone who's just telling you to get out of the relationship, because potentially it may not be safe for you to leave the relationship, because, as you kind of alluded to, sometimes there can be a physical element to all of this. There can be physical violence, physical abuse and even if it hasn't happened yet, if you've had enough red flags that that could potentially happen if you were to actually leave the relationship.

Corissa Stepp: 26:55

because if you think about it when you put your foot down and you're like I'm ending this or I'm leaving. They don't have any kind of control, so they might use whatever means they can and that could even be dangerous means to maintain that control.

Jennifer Parker: 27:10

Exactly and oftentimes. I mean that is true that if someone says that they're afraid, even though there hasn't been physical abuse, that they're afraid that they're going to get killed or that they're going to be armed that way, believe them or believe and believe yourself, because the reason for that is you know that if you step too far, you know, across the boundaries of what they said, that you know that will happen.

Corissa Stepp: 27:36

Right.

Jennifer Parker: 27:38

And I want to just bring up that not everyone who experiences coercive control feels helpless, or that it's mixed with feeling like, well, I'm a strong person, and so sometimes it's hard to understand what's going on. And oftentimes these people also say, well, I allow it. And so it's important to look at what does that mean I allow it? Does that mean you give your permission to be abused? So when they, for instance, they may be saying all kinds of things, really having arguments of the person about their behavior, standing up for themselves, and so they start to feel like, well, I'm permitting it if I stay in the relationship, and so it's important to be sensitive to.

Jennifer Parker: 28:31

I believe that people do have many strengths, even when they've been victimized by this kind of behavior. They try many things, even looking at themselves, to see if there is something they're doing that might be causing. This is a strength in and of itself. It's just that you don't want to step into the trap of really believing what the abuser is saying about that. So there are many people who kind of resist thinking that they're victims because of that, and yet it's the twisting and the constantly being in arguments and so forth really saps their energy and leads them to feel in another way, kind of helpless and hopeless yeah, hopeless about it, especially if they're really believing, they really have a strong belief in. I want to be in this marriage forever. You know which, most of us, when we start relationships, we don't think well, you know, for this period of time and down the road we'll see. You know that's just not the case.

Corissa Stepp: 29:35

Right, right, right. Typically we don't do that for sure, but I love that you brought this up, because this is something that I've actually had talked about once before, which is, if you identify as someone who's highly independent, who's strong, who's capable, who's intelligent and I've talked about this from my own experience I resisted the word victim for a really long time because I'm like I don't feel weak, I don't feel, you know, incapable, I don't feel like I can't do something about this in some way. And I also personally and I think that you've mentioned this even in the book I even took responsibility, because I was like, I stand up for myself, right, I fight back. I don't sit here and just take it. And so I figured I was part of the problem, that I needed to change something about myself or change the way I was communicating, which I mean I will say like most of us have to probably do some work on the way we communicate but I felt like I was taking equal weight and responsibility in the relationship and yet, at the same time, when I look back on it, I'm like, wait a second, no, I was.

Corissa Stepp: 30:45

We have this term that we talk about a narcissistic abuse, which is reactive abuse, right, where we are just reacting to the abuse, and sometimes the perpetrator I'll use that word because it's just easier might be doing things to instigate some strong emotional reaction out of us, because then they can use that as a way to be like, well, you're the crazy one. Like, look at you, you can't control your emotions, right.

Jennifer Parker: 31:11

Yeah, look at that. Yep, Yep, oh boy.

Corissa Stepp: 31:13

You're the abusive one.

Jennifer Parker: 31:16

I love that you brought this up. Yes, definitely. And then it gets you know, and then you start to doubt yourself, right, yes, yeah.

Corissa Stepp: 31:24

Yeah, it causes so much confusion and doubt, and then you know when you don't want to take the label on as victim, which you know. I don't know that you have to take on that, the label of victim. However, I think it is important to understand that what you are experiencing is abuse.

Jennifer Parker: 31:43

Yes, and what I like to say is you have been victimized by someone. That person is responsible for their behavior. Your identity is not as a victim no, that's not who you are but you've endured victimizing behavior.

Corissa Stepp: 32:03

I love that. I love that that's so good. I love that you're re-framing it as you've been victimized and not that you are the victim and identifying with it, because you know, I don't know that we should be labeling people in general. I just think that sometimes we find these terms to sort of describe certain other patterns of behavior or experiences that we've had, and that's not always helpful.

Jennifer Parker: 32:27

Right, right. Yeah, I kind of want to take back that word victim Because, yeah, it has kind of become, it's been misused really, it's been kind of devalued. It's like if you're a victim, you didn't choose to be a victim. That's not who you are, that's what happened to you, right, and I think so many people ascribe shame to it.

Corissa Stepp: 32:50

Right yeah, it's a shameful word, so nobody wants to claim it in any way. But as long as you know to your point that we're seeing that we're attributing the behavior to somebody else and that we were in an almost like collateral damage of that behavior, then we can kind of take a different step forward. So what would be one thing that you would suggest people don't do if they recognize that they are in a coercive relationship?

Corissa Stepp: 33:22

Oh, boy, one thing I mean, can I give you a hint? I can give you a hint as to what I think, and I think you mentioned it actually in the book as well.

Jennifer Parker: 33:32

Well, I think you have to assess your safety and whether or not it's safe to speak up about it. So maybe not, certainly not jumping into thinking, oh I have to leave. You know, take your time, make a safety plan if you need that, and I don't just mean about physical safety, but also emotional safety. Like how can you pull more people into your life that are supportive of you? How can you build that network back so that if you do decide to leave, you've got support, because it's really it can be very trying to leave a relationship like this. Ultimately it's very freeing, but you go through some really hard times usually.

Corissa Stepp: 34:18

Yeah.

Jennifer Parker: 34:19

So what was your idea?

Corissa Stepp: 34:20

Well, first I just want to comment on that, because I know this is something that I've had other people come to me that they've experienced this, which is they might go to a parent, right, their mom, maybe, or their dad and explain to them that this is what they're experiencing, and sometimes that depending on the parent. But what I have seen happen is and again this goes back to narcissism you have a parent that is narcissistic and you don't realize it. It's potential that they might give you all the reasons as to why you should continue to stay, because you getting out of your marriage may be a bad reflection upon them or it goes against some sort of religious belief, and so they might actually end up shaming you or blaming you, and then that's not supportive in this type of situation, and a lot of times these people, these controlling people, can have a very different persona on the outside than they do behind closed doors.

Corissa Stepp: 35:22

So, people might be like, oh my gosh, but he's so nice or he's so friendly, or he's such a good person, or he's such a good dad, and they don't understand what's happening, because you don't have maybe those physical scars to show the abuse, because it's happening emotionally, psychologically, verbally, financially, maybe, you know, sexually, like these are all things that people are not attuned to, and so no fault of their own for not understanding it. But you know, I would just like to caution everyone to just really be careful about who it is you open up to, because you may not always get the support that you're looking for, and I would hate for you to further isolate yourself if you were to approach the wrong person.

Jennifer Parker: 36:07

I totally agree, and what I say to people is connect with those people that you trust and if you find that, unfortunately, your mom or your dad or whoever isn't there isn't at a point where they can, then don't keep going back to them. Find other people, and sometimes that means like a support group, sometimes it starts with that, sometimes it starts with a therapist or a coach, you know.

Corissa Stepp: 36:36

Yeah. So, I mean, I've even heard stories where people are like, but what about the children?

Jennifer Parker: 36:41

And they use the children as a way to guilt you into saying oh yes, oh yes, and in fact, I was just going to say also that they sometimes they try to turn family members against you by saying negative things about you, like painting you in such a way that you're it's looking like you're at fault or there's a problem with you. But they also can do that with children, and that is such that causes such harm for the children as well, as it's the most painful thing If they succeed in alienating a parent from a child. It's very, very painful for people. So, yes, all of those things can happen.

Corissa Stepp: 37:21

Yeah, that parental alienation just also. Like you said, it really hurts the children too. To kind of overcome that, you know, at some point when they start to recognize that's. That's so important. I'm glad that you brought that up. So what I was going to say is that the one thing you maybe should not do is I personally have seen and witnessed and experienced that probably the worst thing you can do with a controlling person is go to couples counseling.

Jennifer Parker: 37:48

Oh yes, Definitely, definitely, definitely. And when I'm talking to therapists I definitely underline this yes, Couples counseling and less it's part of an abuser treatment program because they, if they incorporate any couples counseling- they are working on power and control and the abuse of it.

Jennifer Parker: 38:08

Okay, but you know, mostly people go to couples counseling and think, oh, this is going to help, and generally speaking, I think almost 100% of people I've talked to it's really harmful. It doesn't help them at best and it can be very harmful because, first of all, if they're really honest about what's going on, they often pay the price later and possibly then the abusive person doesn't want to go back, so that's not helpful anyway. But oftentimes what happens is they keep things to themselves because they're afraid to be honest with what's going on, because they know they'll pay a price. Well, no couples counselor can work miracles when they're not even knowing what the story is, and that's great, oh Right.

Corissa Stepp: 38:57

Or like to your point, like if they do open up and start sharing with the counselor, what's actually happening?

Corissa Stepp: 39:02

what can happen is, after the couple goes away, the abuse can actually escalate because now the abusers upset about you know how bad they looked right, or they'll try to gaslight and be like, well, that never happened. Why did you say that? Right? And then it just becomes a situation where you begin to, you might begin to, you know, face your level of self-doubt and it might increase that level of confusion which can keep you stuck in the relationship longer, where you might start to wonder like well, did I recall that correctly?

Corissa Stepp: 39:30

You know, am I the one that got it wrong. Did I not say that? Did he not say that, you know? And then it becomes this whole thing. And so, yeah, I love that you were talking about this, because I do think it's really important, because a lot of people, when they're struggling in their relationships, one of the first things they think to do is to go to couples counseling.

Jennifer Parker: 39:48

Right, it's understandable. But couples counseling when you do couples counseling, there's really the there's usually the affirmation or the assumption that there's an equal playing ground. You know there's not, there's not, they're not unequal in terms of their power and it's a give and take kind of thing. Well, in a coercively controlling relationship that's not the case. So the usual methods do not work.

Corissa Stepp: 40:17

Or you might have the abuser just being very performative during the session, where they're trying to show how wonderful, how they're such a good partner and they're such a good father and they're such a good son and like all these things, that the therapist just can't see them really for who they are, because they're not showing up as who they authentically are. That's all that.

Jennifer Parker: 40:41

Oh, yes, Absolutely. That's another scenario. And then they may agree to things in the session that, okay, we'll go home and do this, but then they don't do it. That can be a way that they begin to see through them. But the other thing that can happen is oftentimes they will go in if they're wanting, if it's their idea in particular, and they will totally take over the whole script of the session in terms of really painting a picture of the person that they're victimizing, that suddenly the therapist is on their side, so to speak, not that they try to take sides, but that it really slants the session and that can be, and it can be really hard for somebody to stand up to that.

Corissa Stepp: 41:27

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like to me. It's like Darvo right, deflect and reverse the victim offender. So the abuser goes in pretending like they're basically the victim and feel, because I have experiences where they walk in and they're like well, I'm the victim here and you guys are ganging up on me.

Corissa Stepp: 41:47

You know, I'm just I just love my spouse, you know, or I just I'm just trying to be the best Provider or the best partner or the best father or whatever, and I just feel like nobody understands what I am experiencing and how I'm feeling, and then the spouse that's being abused is sitting there going. Well, we Almost like speechless, like I don't even know how to address that, or with because if they have a lot of, or if they have a lot of empathy, they might say, oh wow, we maybe you know I have not been doing as much as good of a job as I thought about tending to your needs or being mindful of how you feel, or you know. I think like, oh well, this is my opportunity to try and fix it by Doing more of the things that you know they had been doing. That obviously wasn't working and was against them.

Jennifer Parker: 42:35

So right, and also, and then the other alternative is they may express a lot of anger and you know really, and Perhaps and more, what might appear to be, like you said, reactive, like a little more aggressive, and then the therapist, not understanding that, does see them as maybe a part of the problem so it's really Really not helpful to do couples therapy.

Jennifer Parker: 43:02

What is helpful? When I did couples therapy not not as Treatment for an abusive person, but when I did couples therapy and I discovered that that was happening I always did a three session assessment where I met with them together Four session, I should say and I met with them together and then I met with each of them separately where I could ask the questions that I wanted to Ask of each of them and be more certain that I was going to get an honest answer from somebody. If they were being victimized and then come back together and if they're, if you're discovering there's course of control going on, then you recommend Going to separate. You know, doing individual therapy, doing abuse or treatment and so forth. The abuser may not cooperate with that, but that's okay because you know I say it's okay, it's sad, it's painful, but it just means that they weren't going to choose to change anyway right.

Corissa Stepp: 44:03

I was just thinking how many abusers actually end up agreeing to do or to participating in abuser treatment therapy. Because If I think about it again, like I'm taking this from the narcissistic kind of lens which is they're not able to see themselves or take accountability, so they wouldn't even identify as the abuser. So how would they even be like, yes, I'm signing up for that, unless they thought that there was some, unless they thought that there was something in it for them, meaning that oh, if I sign up for this program, then I can keep my relationship because that says something about me, or I can continue to Maintain my control if I keep this person in this relationship with me. So I'll do the program quote-unquote but maybe not actually make any real changes.

Jennifer Parker: 44:52

Yeah, yes, yes, that that often happens, yeah.

Corissa Stepp: 44:58

So, jennifer, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. I feel like we touched on a lot. Is there anything else that's important that you would like to let the listeners know?

Jennifer Parker: 45:07

I Think it's really important for them to Find, if they don't already have, supportive relationships. It's so extremely important. We are social creatures and we all need that. We take you know Our affirmation from other people, and it's much easier to keep your point of view if you're not just getting your abusers point of view Also want to let people know that there's a discount on my book coercive relationships find the answers you seek of 25% today. So if they are interested in taking a look at that book, you can go to my website, read a preview of it just to make sure and Order the book today from my publisher. In addition, I want them to know about my blog. You, if you're interested in learning more about resources and information that's helpful To you or to people that you work with, if you're a therapist or coach, then I suggest that you sign up for my email list.

Corissa Stepp: 46:14

Absolutely, and we will have all those links in the show notes to make it easy for everyone to find you, to connect with you, to get a copy of the book. I definitely would highly recommend it. I have read it and you know that checklist is huge. Even just walking through, you know a lot of these things that we talked about in some more detail. I think it'd be really helpful if you are questioning whether or not you are in a coercive relationship. Jennifer, thank you so much for the work that you do in this world for the people that you are supporting and continue to support. It means so much, and it's so great to know that there are others out there who you know, who understand this and who can support people through recovering from it, because that's, you know, the next step of this right. The first step is really becoming aware and identifying that you're in a course of relationship. But then how do you move on thereafter, and that's a whole journey in and of itself, and so thank you so much.

Jennifer Parker: 47:08

It is, and people deserve people to walk alongside that them on that journey. So thank you so much for having me.

Corissa Stepp: 47:16

Absolutely All right, listeners until next time. Be well. If you're hearing this message, that means you've listened all the way to the end, and for that I am truly grateful. If you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable, would you mind leaving us a review? Wherever you listen to podcasts and sharing it with others? If you'd like to connect with me for one-on-one coaching or human design reading, you can find me on my website or on social media. Also, if you have a topic you'd like me to discuss on a future episode, please DM me. Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of stepping into meaningful relationships.